Ray is Needmore’s Creative Director and connoisseur of technology, music, design, and coffee. He shares insights on lessons learned about balancing doing good work while having a good time.

Show Notes

Recorded Monday, September 9th, 2013, and this is episode number 28. Follow Ray, Kandace, Dan, or Needmore on Twitter. Please rate our show on iTunes!

The Interview

Kandace:
Hey Ray, how are you?
Ray:
Hi, good. It’s great to be on the show. Long time listener, first time caller.
Why don’t you start by telling us where you grew up?
Where I grew up. I kind of grew up outside of Cleveland in Sheffield Lake. In the middle of fifth grade or sixth grade, my dad’s job required that we move to Minnesota. He worked for 3M. That is Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing home base in Minnesota, so we moved to White Bear Lake, which is a suburb of Saint Paul, which is a twin city to Minneapolis. I kind of felt like I grew up in Minneapolis. I do have fond memories of Sheffield Lake, Ohio.
Is Sheffield where you had, you’ve talked before about spending some childhood time running around in the woods, was that …?
Yeah, it was cool because we had this vacant lot right next to our house, it was big. It was probably the size of, this was in the suburbs, it extended what would have been probably 12 houses. I have no idea what that equals in measurement. At the end of that, it was right next door to our house, that ended at a railroad tract. That was sort of the boundary of where I could play. It was never really said how far I could go, but it was like, once I was in that woods, there was nothing more dangerous than maybe an occasional deer. It wasn’t like a dangerous woods.

Train Station

The “train station” in Sheffield Lake, Ohio


A hobo every once in a while.
Nope, no, the nice thing about the suburbs is there’s no hobos.
On the railroad tracks.
No, they wouldn’t. The only thing that ever came down those railroad tracks, as far as I could tell was coal. Not even boxed cars, they were like coal holding cars.
Okay.
I’d get so excited too, I would pick up stray bits of coal from the sides of the tracks.
Did you have a coal collection?
I did, I did. My parents used to joke that if I was bad, they would give me coal for Christmas, but then that would make me happy so they wouldn’t know what to give me.
So, you moved to the twin cities area.
Yep.
Is that where you stayed through high school?
Yeah, through high school, yeah. Yeah. I finished a half year of elementary school, then went to junior high, and then high school. It was weird because our house was right across from … the high school was split into two high schools, so the last two years it was right across from my house. The first two years of high school …
Dangerous.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Freshman and sophomore years were at what they called the north campus, which was way at the other end of town. I think that’s where, the junior high was right next to that. For most of my high school and junior high career, I was very far from school, and from most forms of mischief. As soon as I was a junior, as soon 11th grade came, my grades dropped precipitously because I could basically sneak out and go home and have lunch there. Then I’d be like, “Well, I’m home I might as well just play on my computer or whatever.” 
What were you doing on computers then. What was possible back in that stone age of computer days.
I feel like my first memory of what I could do with a home computer that was cool was that we made this thing when I was in fifth grade, this was actually before we moved to Minnesota, this was in Ohio. We had an Atari 400, it had a flat membrane keyboard. It was kind of like typing on an iPad but more difficult. My dad made this little thing that said the school mascot in blinking letters, brought it to show your class day. Every dad would come and do something cool, my dad … he used to bring home spare equipment from work all the time, especially once we moved to Minnesota. Our basement was filled with crap like old CRT displays, even old at that time, or old keyboards with just ribbon connectors that you could plug into a circuit board. He’d always show me, “You could hook these up together.” He had weird arrangements with his buddies where he’d trade for these little, these old machines. We had a Pachinko machine, all these old things that had electro, you know, they were kind of electric. Not necessarily electronic, but he used to love to tinker with that stuff. We’d go down there and he’d just be like, “Here’s a bucket of ball bearings, play with this.” I think for a while we had a model train set, but. By the time I was in high school I was still using … okay, in junior high it was still the old 8 bit Ataris, in high school it switched to the 16 bit Ataris. What was cool then is that you could play cooler games or go on line. This was before the internet was a realistic option for me. 

Atari 400 Ray and his Dad

Atari 400 and Ray with his dad, playing an Atari with floppy drive!


About what year are you talking about now?
This is in the late 80s.
Okay.
You’d go into a bulletin board system, they were called a BBS, and you would … When you emailed back then it was like you’d send an email and then at some point during the next 24 hours that BBS would phone another BBS and send the emails that were supposed to go there. It was kind of like the internet now, but like a million times slower. Any way, you could do that.
Who would you email?
Just absolutely random people. It was like …
Anyone you could reach?
Yeah, literally, anyone you could find. I think one of my buddies on line was really into horses. He ran this equestrian BBS. I was really into William S. Burroughs. I ran this sugar skull BBS. It was like I could only do it at night. I had to go up every night and manually disconnect all the phones. 
I bet your parents loved that.
Oh my God. I’d always forget to reconnect them.
Right.
“I had this important 8 AM phone call.” Any way.
Okay. High school …
We’ve got through two questions.
High school, what, you’ve mentioned before that you spent a lot of your high school time involved in extracurricular activities versus probably classes. What were your big interests?
Drama, theater, I ran an underground paper called Rainy Day Weather. I was really into computers. I excelled at the computer classes. I would sometimes go into the computer lab, although my computer was better than the ones at school so I didn’t spend a lot of time there. I was in a band in the last few years of high school. I guess that was kind of extracurricular.
You’ve been in quite a few bands.
I have. 
Yeah, tell us about that.
Well, I played guitar, I don’t know, that was like my creative outlet for a long time, playing music. I was also, of course, fascinated with the technology. I had this little tascam four track, which would just record on a cassette tape so it always sounded terrible. I just really liked playing and writing songs. I was always fascinated by the song writing process. I would always try to diagram songs, which is kind of how I used to write programs. I would kind of diagram the way it should work together and then fill in the blanks. I don’t know.

I remember thinking, “Graphic design, that’s what that’s called, I love that.” I love graphic design.

This is one from the audience. You are both a designer and a developer, you have been. It often time takes a certain kind of mind set to either design or develop but you seem to be able to marry the two. What do you think it is about you that allows you to do that? Where …
I think a lot of people view design and development as left brain versus right brain.
That is exactly what the … Yeah, that was the exact question I had.
First of all, that is not true, we’ll get to that.
Okay.
I never thought of myself as being into design until fairly late in my life so far. I was a late bloomer in design. I was always into computers and nerding out on them. It was partly because I had this affinity with my father who was into that too, it was easy to work on that stuff. He wasn’t a person who thought about graphic design or anything like that. I can remember being fascinated by motion graphics and logos on TV and stuff like that. I would love to wait for the little interstitials that happen at the beginning and ends of shows. I would always be fascinated when a network would change their logo animation, like, “Why did they do that?” Then I can remember, I remember in ninth grade maybe, in computer class, everyone was in charge of making a movie. It was on an Apple II, it was on a very primitive computer. I decided the only way to do it would be to draw out each frame, which was I believe 40 by 24 pixels basically. I meticulously animated this whole thing and turned it into data statements. I was really fascinated back then with how you would animate something and do something visual with so few pixels, with really rough building blocks. It was like working with Legos to make fine art. It wasn’t until I was in Santa Cruz, this was … I spent a year in Santa Cruz before settling in Portland. I worked at a game company, an ill fated game company called Osiris Studios. My job there was just chance. I knew somebody there and I wanted a job and he was like, “Well, you could probably do the texture mapping on the surfaces of the polygons in this game.” So I did. While I was there, with what little money I came by, I discovered this section of the book store in Santa Cruz that I liked the most was the design magazines. I remember there being like a design magazine from Portland called Plazum that I was really into. The work of David Carson who was doing really crazy stuff with graphic design. I remember thinking, “Graphic design, that’s what that’s called, I love that.” I love graphic design. The web was extremely nascent because this was like probably 98. It had only really been around any popular means for like three or four years. You couldn’t really do much. The predominant web browser was still Netscape Navigator. 
Ouch.
This was so, so long ago. Yeah. You could only really animate by using animated gifs. I did, I did up this ridiculously massive site, which I still have somewhere, that was just like, it was just stupid. Then I moved to Portland and I decided to try to see if I could a job with Plazum, which of course I didn’t. I didn’t have any portfolio or anything. I think they all but laughed me out of the building like, “This isn’t really a portfolio. Come back in another year.”
This is an animated gif.
Yeah. It was … I think I printed some stuff out, but it was the work of someone who just wanted to look like David Carson. It wasn’t there. I had no identity or thought of my own. I put that aside for a couple of years, but I was still playing around with it in my spare time, still obsessed with graphic design. Realizing that this is coming together with, both of my interests were coming together. It’s always seemed to me that programming is more of a creative pursuit than most people think of. I think it’s a lot like creative writing. I think that good graphic design takes a lot of rigor and a lot of thinking about more than just … It all goes back to being fascinated with the latest NBC logo. I always wanted to know why they did it and whose job it was to think about that stuff. If they were making more money as a result of changing their logo.
You mentioned when you went into that interview that you showed a portfolio that didn’t really have your own voice?
Right.
How did you find your voice?

David Carson

Work of David Carson, Graphic Designer


Well, I stopped looking at David Carson’s work for one thing. I think that I got a … I think it was the Meggs book. “The History of Graphic Design, Volume III.” I think we still have it on the shelf. It’s just this massive hard cover book that goes through the history of graphic design, obviously, hence the name. Looking through that book was the first time, because I had no schooling in graphic design, it was the first time I had a sense of perspective. It was the first time that I got a sense of like, “Oh yeah, this has been done before, this has been done before.” and could identify the periods that I was really interested in and then could learn more about those. I think, as a result, I realized that I was really into the real rational graphics of Bauhaus or like, if you look in the 60s and 70s, like Olympic signage design and stuff. I realized that I like the … I’m always fascinated by the underlying structures of things. I remember when grid structures became a thing on the web, being fascinated by that. Like every time someone, when Apple came out with the new iOS 7 and stuff. I was like, “They have this, their showing you the grid structure they’re using to make the icons.” Esthetically you might not agree with it but I love learning about the underlying, almost like the math behind the design.
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
The geometry anyway. 
It’s interesting, from the way you describe it it’s hard to think of someone separating out design and production.
I’m biased because I’m always trying to justify that to myself and to others.
Yeah.
Like, “Well, how can that person be programming and also designing?” But it’s like, I’ve been doing it for so long, to me it seems like it an asset to be thinking about both things at the same time. 
You also took a soirée into coffee.
Right.
Along the way.
Before founding Needmore I worked at Stumptown Coffee Roasters. That was the seventh coffee shop that I worked at. Before leaving the twin cities. I worked at numerous coffee shops in Saint Paul and Minneapolis, culminating in one that I co-owned with my friend Scott. I felt like I was moving forward. Going from just a coffee jerk to a coffee jerk who owns the business.
Is that a technical term?
I don’t know, it’s what everyone called you. I’m not sure when I knew what the word barista even meant. I think at some point I just had to get out of the twin cities, it was so depressing. One winter I just snapped. I was like, “I have to go to the west coast.” For some reason I just always wanted to be in the west coast. I did end up in Santa Cruz. I had that nice computer job, but when I came back to Portland and decided to settle here. I think the first real job that I got here was at a coffee house that was in Powell’s Technical Books, which I loved. There was never, it was a failed business, there was never any customers. No one wanted coffee. I just sat and read technical books all day for free. I was in heaven. Then I decided, “Well, okay, maybe the coffee is for me.” I worked at Pete’s. I worked with Duane Sorenson at Peet’s. Some point we started hanging around drinking and stuff. He was like, “Hey, I’m opening a coffee shop. You should come work with me.” I said, “Sure, I would love to. How soon can I start?” He’s like, “Well, I’m not opening for a couple of months.” Pete’s wasn’t fun either, but sometimes it was really fun. I thought that was for me. At some point I started doing web design on the side there. I did the Stumptown’s first sight. Eventually it sort of became the full time gig that I was doing, after I was fired a couple times.
What did you learn when you were working in coffee that you apply to business today?
Very little of what you would think. I’ve learned that I should not be doing customer service or anything like that. I really wear my mood on my sleeve. I don’t know if that’s a term. I learned a lot about myself. I think I learned from … I learned a lot at Stumptown, and I guess from the other places on how to run a business and how not to run a business.
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
One of the coffee houses that I worked at was an early early cyber cafe. That was a bad idea. Cyber cafes were a bad idea because it represented a misunderstanding of how the internet was going to work. It came from an era of when it was scarce and people didn’t have a means to get on the internet. It was never going to take off. It was always just like the computers were a liability. If you’re going to open a coffee shop you should be focused on the coffee. I think I learned a lot from Stumptown because, just seeing how … Stumptown was the first place I worked where it was an independent, yet, the owner actually tried to give people health care and benefits and stuff like that. I was always struck by the amount of loyalty people had. I think I learned a lot about running a business and managing a business from Stumptown, from Duane. I did the books there for a while so I learned how books work. Also that I shouldn’t be doing books. I learned a lot about what not do to in life by working coffee, but I also learned a lot about business. 
Who has inspired you the most in business?
Definitely Duane did. Do you mean people that I know or just people in general?
No, no, are there people that you look up to?
It’s different every … Right now I’m reading a book on Bill Gates, randomly. I’ve read a lot of books on Steve Jobs. I’ve read a book on Walt Disney. He’s been kind of inspiration. It doesn’t matter to me what a person is like on a personal level, it’s more like I like reading about how they approach the unique, their unique business environment. It’s fascinating to me how Walt Disney built such an empire in his life from nothing. I always thought he was a really, he was a better business man than you would have thought. Considering that he was always considered to be a person from a creative background, but, a lot like Steve Jobs, Walt Disney didn’t really animate. It was kind of a means to an end. Steve Jobs, he never really knew how to program or anything. He would never do that kind of stuff. In the same hand, it’s fascinating how Bill Gates did program and do a lot of the early stuff at Microsoft. It’s always just fascinating to me to learn. I guess those three people maybe. I could think of a lot. I read a lot of business books, so, the answer would change frequently.
Needmore, your business has grown quite a bit in the last year.
Yeah, look out Walt Disney.
How has your job changed from being … Probably a year and a half ago you were the main designer and programmer here at Needmore. Now there are both designers and programmers that work with you. How has your day-to-day changed?
If I had to put it in one word, I would say meetings. I used to think meetings were horrible, awful things to be avoided. I’ve kind of learned that it’s just how you run a meeting. We’re not, certainly not the kind of business that going to get bogged down in half day meetings where you have to have food trucked in and stuff. Meetings can just be a five minute, run into someone over on that side of the studio and have a quick conversation. I think a lot of it has been, the change for me has been, yeah, I like not sitting at a desk for eight solid hours and feeling like that’s the limit of our through put, but more like trying to delegate some things. I really enjoy trying to hip more people to our esthetic, maybe, or our philosophy. I love when we have a meeting and there’s like six people at the table and someone randomly has this idea that’s like, “Oh my God, that’s brilliant. Let’s do that.” I think, I find it really exciting to have more minds contributing to projects and stuff. You know, stuff.
Needmore is about to hit its first decade, the ten year point. Where do you see yourself and your business in another ten years.
Oh my God.
Yep.
Older. They going to ask me anything about trains or anything? In ten years, older, probably richer.
Older and richer. Why don’t you tell me about trains?
Yeah, okay. To answer your question first seriously, about where the business in ten years.
These are from the audience. I’m just….
Yeah, must have some twitter. I would like to take on projects that are bigger and deeper and more exciting, and become more of a services business. I feel like the one area we haven’t really just dove into is, I don’t know what it is yet. I think we kind of like, we dip our toes in the water in different kinds of services, but I strongly feel that to get Needmore to the next level we need to go deeper on some sort of service thing. I don’t know if it’s for clients, or a different type of client, or if it’s just a product that we’re selling or a service that we’re selling. But, that’s in the back of my mind and I’m pretty sure it will be in ten years. Trains.
Yeah. You’ve always had a fascination with trains?
Yeah. That probably does go back to childhood to that, that there was a railroad near our house. I was always … I imagine anyone would be, it was just this straight line that went in either direction. It was always like, “Where does it go?” The roads, I could see the end of every road that was around, but there was like this railroad line … With the internet I probably could figured out where it went, but I was always like, “Where does it go, to the end of the world?” It just seemed like, where does this line, it’s so straight and so long. It was always such a mysterious world. You’d sit out there by the tracks and the sun would come out and you’d start to hear all these noises like from the … Loved that. Which is why I decided after high school to hop trains for a while, which I think I came into by accident. 
The train hopping?
Yeah. I think, my friend Michelle was going to go to Seattle hopping trains. She backed out. You always partnered up, so her partner needed someone else to go, or she wasn’t going to go. I was like, “Well sure, I’ll do it.” I don’t know why I was so eager to just. I recall at the time I had a job and was paying rent on a place though. Probably a lot of people were pissed at me, but I just did it. It was so cool. It was so fun. It almost killed me more than once. My favorite thing was that you would go through … if you’re on a train, you don’t see what’s on the top or on the sides really, you only see straight out the window. You can’t see what’s in front of the train or behind the train or over the train or anything like that. When you’re on the freeway driving in a car, you might be able to see all those things, but you’re on a freeway, you’re mostly seeing billboards. There’s a lot more … It’s just dumbed down, it’s not, it’s the freeway, it’s not the train. When you’re hopping trains, you’re completely exposed to the elements for better or worse. You’re going through these crazy old school tunnels through the Rocky mountains that are like, like human don’t often set eyes on them unless they’re the actual train conductor. Otherwise you don’t really see them. You go through a lot of these going through the mountains. It was amazing. It was so amazing to see. I could see why you’d want to be a train conductor because you get to see that kind of stuff all the time. 

Rocky Mountains

Rocky Mountains
Photo credit: Yvette Cendes


The closest I’ve ever come to feeling like that I think is driving through Yosemite. Just being underneath those huge expanses. 
Yeah.
Of course it was you that encouraged us to go there too ….
Yeah. Those experiences are increasingly hard to come by.
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Going to Yosemite is amazing. I feel like we’re starting to get our family to do that kind of stuff. I’m not sure that I’ll ever encourage my kids to hop trains, but certainly to go to Yosemite I would. 
Are there, besides train hoping, are there experiences that you’ve had that you would tell them definitely they need to do this?
Yeah, but they’re mostly like traveling, places to see. I think I would be happy to do it with them. I’d love to see Asia. I’d love to go back to Europe and stuff like that. That, and honestly, part of me, I think every parent must go through this and it bothers me a lot. Is that I feel bad letting … I never watched a lot of TV as a kid, but I also hacked. I also learned program while I was still in elementary school and spent all of high school fascinated with that kind of stuff. I worry that in this age of iPhones and iPads that it’s sort of forcing people to be more of a consumer. I feel like I might just sound like an old man when I say that but at the same time. I watched TV. There were a lot of TV shows that I really loved as a kid. When I was done with that I would go into my basement and hack on a computer. I would learn all of these crazy things and just figure stuff out. I feel like I don’t want my kids to grow up like watching TV and then saying, “Oh, I’ll relax by playing on the iPad.” which is also mindless and doesn’t involve any sort of logic or thinking or reasoning or discovery. 
On iPads?
Yeah. Maybe it does.
Yeah. Well maybe you just found the service you need to provide. It definitely seems like you can use the iPad for discovery if the right tools are there.
That’s true. I definitely would love for my kids to have creative outlets like that, whether it’s learning to play music or whatever. I suppose kids are going to do that.
Yeah. One other question from someone in the studio. Have there been any times or moments that you think have made you who you are today? What have been the really pivotal moments for you?
Yeah. Well, I think, I was kind of eluding to that when I said leaving hte twin cities. I was sort of like, sometimes a person, however talented, intelligent, and well meaning, can get involved in stuff like drugs. Not the good kind, and kind of go-no-where jobs that really aren’t using the parts of their brain that they should be using. I was seeing a lot of people going down that path and have learned since that most of them did. I think I saw that kind of happening being in the … The twin cities can be really, really fucking depressing like in the winter. We were not really getting enough daylight. You can’t really get any exercise, you’re probably not eating well because you’re just serving coffee. I kind of felt like I needed to leave there to save my life. During the marathon drive to Portland, I first came to Portland and then went to Santa Cruz. During this sort of marathon drive to Portland, I fell asleep at the wheel and rolled the car four times and totaled it. I feel like that was this, that was like the darkest hour. I think back on that a lot. Not just when I’m driving at night, but a lot when I think about … I think everyone has, should have a moment where they almost die. I’ve had a couple.
Yeah, I was going to say, you’ve had more than one of those, yeah.
I’ve had a couple. In the course of hopping trains I was hit by a train, I almost drowned as a kid, I got electrocuted on top of a ladder as a kid, which I flew through the air. Yeah, and other … I’ve been hit by a car as well as totaling a car.
You and I were walking on a snowy day …
Oh yeah, we almost died that one time too.
Car came hurdling towards us. Thank God for that tree.
Yeah.
I mean, you’re surviving all this for something right? 
Exactly. I definitely have had a much healthier attitude since leaving the twin cities. Yeah. Well I also thought I was going to die of cancer. There was that, the lung cancer scare.
Right.
Like, “When the … How many?” I should really make a list of these at some point. Yeah, that was the thing that, I think we had both tried to quit smoking, I was miss-diagnosed with lung cancer after an x-ray once. That definitely … we were talking about this last night. There were some other people in the room, we were like, “Well, you know, I wouldn’t mind a cigarette. Oh, it’s kind of hard to quit.” I was like, “It was not hard to quit.”
Yeah.
I could smoke a cigarette and not enjoy it. There’s nothing about me that wants a cigarette. I’ll do it to make everyone feel comfortable or whatever, but I don’t want a cigarette, I don’t like … things like that. Same with some of the drugs that I used to do in the mid-west. I have just no interest in any of that stuff. I’m grateful for all of that because now my interests are healthy like having kids and being a good example, and like running a business, and like doing good by my people here. Trying to do good work, trying to do the best work possible. I’m like trying to really run the kind of business that I’m proud of. I might be, I think like, sometimes I think about that 20 year old train hopping pithead would think about me now. First of all I would think he was a shit head. But I would be curious of what he thought of me now and I would think, “Yeah, he would actually probably think I was a dick, but once he heard what I was doing and stuff, he would probably really want to work here.” 
Yeah.
I feel like that …
So you want to be the man that that 20 year old …
Wouldn’t mind growing up to be, or wouldn’t mind working with, or would think was pretty cool for a grown up.

Trying to do good work, trying to do the best work possible. I’m trying to really run the kind of business that I’m proud of.

Yeah. All right then. 
Are there any other questions?
I know that this is … Yes, there is. 
Okay.
We’ve been in this business for about, over ten years.
All most ten years, yeah.
Of design. What would you say to someone that’s trying to get in right now? What advice would you give them? Go to college?
Into web design?
Yeah.
I don’t know that I would give them any advice. I would probably ask them why the hell they would want to do that and if they’re sure, and to justify it to me, and to ask if they’d considered other options. If they were very serious about it I would say, “Well, you know, are they getting, are they trying to start a business or are they trying to work at a business? Are they trying to … As far as getting the skills to do the work, I’m not the right person to ask because I didn’t go to college and I have no formal training in any of this. Not one bit in any of it. I’m doing okay. Personally, everyone learns different. Despite the fact that I didn’t go to college, I have this ability to just sit down and read through a technical book front to back in a couple of days if it’s something that genuinely interests me. I think all that really matters is that you are interested in it, you are passionate about it, and you’re willing to tinker. I doesn’t matter if you’ve opened up a text editor or a photo editor or whatever. If you’re really interested you’ll right click on something in your web browser and you’ll say, inspect element, and you’ll try to figure out what’s happening there. If you have genuine interest in it you’ll know, it will be the thing that keeps you up at night. If you don’t, then some little punk who does is always going to do better and work faster and more creatively and figure things out and be willing to work evenings and weekends because it’s fun. If you’re the kind of person who’s just like, “Well, I need a job so maybe it should be this, I don’t know.” then, screw it, you shouldn’t be doing it. I think that applies to anything. If there’s any special or unique about this, it’s just, if this particular thing is exciting to you, then go for it. We’re hiring. We’re not really but I just always say that.
Last question.
Yes.
What is on your turn table right now, what are you listening to?
Well, it’s funny you should ask that because immediately following this segment on the program I’m going to tell you about something that I’m listening to. I would say that setting that aside, I’ve really been into New Zealand music, the Bats, the Clean, and this David Kilgour guy has some solo stuff that I’ve really been listening to a lot. Also, Grant Hart has this amazing new album out. He’s the ex-drummer from Husker Du. He has this amazing album out that started out as a collaboration with William S. Burroughs, William S. fucking Burroughs. The Naked Lunch guy. 
Yeah.
Apparently he’s started it when, obviously when Burroughs was alive, but 10, 15 years ago.
Only you had your Burroughs, you’d have Sugar Skull now.
Yeah, it would be on the front page of my BBS. Yeah, so yeah. The new Grant Hart, not so new David Kilgour, definitely.
Okay.
The second album by Belle and Sebastian, the one that starts out with Stars of Track and Field. I can’t get enough of that album, it’s a masterpiece.
Well, gosh Ray, thanks for coming in.
Thanks for talking to me. It’s been a pleasure.
It’s been real nice.